Blog
The Obama Experiment
Recently I engaged in a lengthy e-mail discussion with an old friend of mine who's final statements was "Obama sucks!" The following is the discussion thread:
Tom:
Finally, there’s one thing we can agree upon. Obama does suck. Like you, I long for the good old days when we didn’t have to worry about these record deficits, we just kept all those pesky expenses for Iraq and Afghanistan off the books. Remember how we didn’t care what the rest of the world thought of us. Who needs the rest of the world anyway? America should be able to stand alone. It’s not like we are dependent upon the economies of the rest of the world. Screw them, let them figure their own way out of this recession.
I miss the days when our president could announce that Iraq had WMDs and, then, “Mission Accomplished” and we believed him. It’s certainly not our fault that those damn Iraqis didn’t appreciate what we did for them.
It’s so embarrassing now to have that wimpy Obama going around the world trying to make nice with moderate Islamic governments in an effort to make us safer. Every true American knows that the only way to keep America safe is to stick suspected terrorists at Gitmo indefinitely, not allow them any right to counsel or to a fair trial, and torture the hell out of them. Oops, did I say torture? I meant to say “subject them to enhanced interrogation techniques.” What happened to the America that felt comfortable with its government wiretapping its phone calls without any judicial oversight. Hey, I don’t have anything to hide so why not? That’s what the real America is all about.
And whatever happened to the America that required companies to be responsible for their own screw ups? Oh wait, that’s right, the bailouts started under W. OK, forget about that but still, Obama sucks. A real president wouldn’t have us in this recession to start with. What? You say that the recession started while W. was in office? OK, but that’s because of those Democrats in Congress.
I don’t know about you but as soon as Dick Cheney announces his candidacy for 2012, I’m signing on. Under a Cheney administration, we wouldn’t have to worry about some Latina liberal being appointed to the Supreme Court. My God, this new proposed Justice seems to think that the Constitution is an evolving document! We need more white males who understand that the Constitution drafted in the 18th Century gives us all of the rights that we need and should be strictly construed consistent with the drafters’ original intent. Of course, you should ignore the stuff in the Constitution about slavery but, other than that, what those farmers and merchants believed back in the 1780s is certainly good enough for me.
Speaking of strict construction, isn’t it time that we finally admitted that we are a Christian Nation and start ensuring that our laws are consistent with both the Constitution and the Bible? Freedom of Religion doesn’t mean freedom from Religion. The Constitution merely prohibits the Government from promoting any one religion like they did in England. Let’s promote all religions (as long as they are Christian!). Kids have to be taught about the Bible in public schools. It really is a shame to see our Society deteriorate just because of those communists at the ACLU don’t want our kids to know about God.
Let’s hope that people finally realize that the “Obama Experiment” is a bad idea and that we need to get back to good old fashion American politics. The sooner the better! Are we on the same page?
-KWL
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Heh? If I read you correctly, you're still enamoured with Obama. If not, disregard the following.
I guess you are proud/hopeful of the direction Obie has steered us. Enough with the Bush bashing. Obie owns things now. What he's doing in the big scheme of his has nothing to do with correcting or fixing past decisions. Agreed? If so, I say Obama sucks. If not, he still sucks. If you like the direction he's going, tell me that some day in the next 3 years I'm going to come to a realization that he is a great President. Tell me that the life of my family and friends and community will be better because of Obie's grand scheme. I'll be waiting. I
promise I'll let you know when my opinion of our President changes.
-Tom
_____________________
I am both proud and hopeful about Obama. He’s still got a long way to go but I am proud of the fact that he “gets it, “ which W. never did. America is more than just a country, it is an ideal. Torture should never be sanctioned by the government. Invasions of privacy, such as those under the Patriot Act, should never be sanctioned by the government. It was Benj. Franklin who stated: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
So what is Obama doing wrong? GM? What choice does he have. If the automobile industry goes under in America, the loss of employment will be devastating. I think that GM management and the unions have really screwed things up. I’m hopeful that the government will at least be able to steer GM in the right direction and then get the hell out of the way.
Closing Gitmo? Our use of Gitmo was a mistake from Day 1. In any event, if we want to stick people in prison, we have plenty of space in Nebraska.
Allowing stem cell research? I will agree that this is questionable as embryonic stem cell research has discovered some real problems but we, as a nation, need to at least encourage scientific experimentation that could help millions.
Appointing the Latino Liberal? Surely you can’t be questioning this appointment. She is extremely well qualified and has been previously nominated to Federal Bench positions by both H.W. and Clinton.
Iraq? Most Iraqis want us out. He set a timetable. He’s focusing on Afghanistan where W. should have focused years ago. He still needs to figure out how to resolve things in Afghanistan and Pakistan but give him some time. He’s trying and he understands that the longer it goes on, the more unpopular it becomes to have our kids dying over there.
Health care? Even the Republicans acknowledge that we need to do something about this. At least he’s trying.
So, what have I missed? What has Obama done that warrants saying he sucks. The guys been in office less than 6 months. I’m not ready to put his face up on Mt. Rushmore but I am impressed that he seems to understand the severity of our problems and that the fixes are exceedingly complex and will take time. As best I can see, he’s being honest with the American people in telling them what his perceptions and goals are.
Tom, I don’t think that you’ll ever agree that Obama is a great president, just like you’ll never convince me that the Bush/Cheney Administration was good for America, or that Clinton never had sex with that woman or that Nixon was honest. I won’t deify Obama but I am encouraged by him and, yes, he gives me hope. At this point, that’s enough for me.
-KWL
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I predict when you get disillusioned it will be far too late.
If you could stop making this a comparison to past Presidents, just realize how much he is banking on grabbing our and our childrens’ future earnings. Unprecedented.
For the record, I don’t think I’ve ever doubted that Clinton had sex with Monica. Clinton should have just admitted it instead of perjurying himself. Dope.
Sotomayor has said racist statements while a judge. Undisputed.
I’ve given up defending Bush. Pointless.
-Tom
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How can you perform any reasonable analysis of Obama without comparing him to his predecessors? That’s like saying BC’s football team last year was the best (or worst) it has ever had, as long as you don’t look at any of the prior teams.
While Obama has certainly increased the amount of the federal deficit, you have to compare it to his predecessor’s numbers. Bush, as well as every other president for the past 40+ years has always run a deficit. The huge deficits started with Reagan with just a short “blip” during Clinton’s final term. That “blip” has to be considered at least partly the result of the economic boom that was going on at the time and which subsequently burst.
Obama’s numbers are certainly the highest yet but we are also in the midst of a recession that is unprecedented. I was speaking with an economist the other day that said in some ways, the current recession is actually worse than the Great Depression.
Sotomayor made one – just one, minor racial statement. If that’s the best that the Republican’s can come up with, they should just concede and approve her nomination.
As far as defending Bush, it’s not pointless, it’s impossible.
-KWL
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Put it this way, we could have some kind of discussion, but I can't deal with all of the pigeon droppings you let fly.
Some of your arguments use leftist sterotypes of conservatives that don't fit me and are insulting.
We see two Americas. I remember what our counrty was like, for good and bad. The values of this country are shot. Depending on the federal government for all our needs is and will be our downfall. I just imagined if I had to wait any longer to get my ear checked out. Instead of 1 day, if it took two weeks, I would have no hope of recovery. The window for cure would be over. Our medical system ain't great, but I dread the alternative. The question then becomes who benefits with some kind of universal health care? The non-workers, mostly. Let's not forget (oh no, I'm going to say it) the illegals. Oh yeah, Barry's going to make everything all right on that front too.
Oh, and I'm so glad the world loves us now. They do? I don't think so. Even if they did, who gives a crap? The only time we have been most appreciated is when we saved numerous peoples in war. Over time the saved have forgotten the greatness and nobilty of America. No wonder why, so do many Americans. OK, you can stop gagging. But Barrack will not be making America greater (by any measure). Trust me, I hope I'm wrong.
Piss all you want on Bush, but remember Clinto had his chances to take out Osama, France, Germany and Turkey screwed us on the eve of invading Iraq, and our country wasn't attacked after 9/11. Germany, France and England have all shifted right since 9/11. A little too late, but you know if France didn't backstab us, the course of Iraq would have been totally different. I blame Chirac.
The Mission Accomplish jab has taken on a life on its own. What a joke. I watched the whole event live. I remember it. It's funny how they can't replay Bush's speech on the aircraft carrier that day. Look it up, if you can. I remember him saying the war was far from over. Hmmm, your buddy (I assume) Keith Olberman will never want to play that quote.
Let's both agree to hope. Trust me, I hope I'm wrong on Obie. But I don't hope his policies succeed. Running up insane defiicts to implement his agenda is obscene. Trust me, as a two degree economist, it will not be stimulative.
-Tom
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I sincerely apologize if you thought I was suggesting you are a stereotypical conservative. You may be a lot of things (mostly wrong!) but you are certainly not stereotypical of anything. If you remember a country radically different than what we have now, you have a much better memory than me. We have been a country of big government at least since FDR. Never, in our lifetimes, has government actually shrunk for any sustained period (I believe it may have shrunk during Clinton’s last year but that was it).
As to health care, its not like there are just 2 choices – what we have now and a socialized system. We will end up with a system that will provide basic benefits for everyone but allow those who can afford it to choose their own doctors and their own treatment.
Since you brought up the issue of illegals, I have to at least touch on that. I suspect that you and I disagree on this issue (what a surprise!). My thought is to open the borders to anyone and everyone who wants to experience America. As a condition of being allowed in, however, you would have to be fluent in English and no criminal background. I would provide then provide for a tiered system of citizenship that would gradually grant greater rights over a period of years. If, during any time prior to full citizenship, the person commits a serious crime, they’re done. Terminate their citizenship and deport them, seize their assets, brand their children, etc. OK, maybe not the last 2 but at least terminate the citizenship and deport them.
I’ve watched the Mission Accomplished video. I know what Bush said. I know that he had no strategy (or is it strategery?) for what to do in Iraq after toppling Saddam. He truly thought that the Iraqi people would rise up as one, praise him and America and get their shit together after decades of brutal dictatorship. That’s like saying a dysfunctional family can cure all its problems if people would just tell each other that they love him. Perhaps even a better analogy would be a dysfunctional family with an abusive parent. What happens when the parent dies? Generally the family stays dysfunctional.
It was naïve on the part of Bush and his lackeys not to have developed an exit strategy and is inexcusable.
As to trusting you because of your dual economics degrees, no offense but no thanks. If there’s one thing I think you will agree on, it’s that the more technical things get, the more opinions there are. Many very talented and educated economists supports Obama’s spending. Just as many, if not more, doubt it. Being just a good old country lawyer, I’ll just sit that argument out and see what it looks like when the dust settles. To the extent that Obama’s plans get us out of this recession, I’m all for it. The true measure of Obama will be when the economy recovers. Will he be able to lead the hogs (Congress) away from the public trough? If so, he will be a truly great man. If not, I will agree with you that we are in deep shit.
I honestly don’t think that you and I disagree too much. You’re pessimistic about Obama’s plans and I am optimistic. We are both cynical, in the long run, about whether or not government will ever truly figure out a way to decrease its size and get its financial house in order.
Are we done? Don’t we both have better things to do? Or, as I suspect, are you and I going to continue this because we both want the last word? Wouldn’t this be much better if we were doing this on the beach with a cooler of beer between us? In any event, tag - you’re it.
KWL
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I know this reply is out of sequence, but you’ve really pissed me off and I need to make a few more points.
I’m sorry I’m not so well prepared (or inclined) to argue every one of your thoughtful issues, but here’s my response to a few. Please believe I could go on for about a year responding to you, but why?
First, you suggest that interrogating the enemy at Gitmo is an “invasion of privacy” . What planet are you on? Invasion of privacy? They were caught on the battle field invading our right to LIVE!
For a liberterarian, what makes you think Obama isn’t invading our privacy more and more? He’s attacking every institution we know. Where’s my right to be left alone? He wants me to pay more for energy, health care, and taxes to pay for those that won’t get off their butts except for the next handout.
Getting involved with GM? Saving workers? Give me a break. It’s called competition. GM caved to the unions and lost its competiveness. Now, Obie wants manufacturers to build trash can compacts that nobody with a brain wants. That’s taking away liberties. GM should have gone bankrupt. Let the chips fall where they may. Oh we can’t have that. We have to go on a crusade against the executives who fly in to DC instead of driving. What a crock. Say, how was Obie’s trip to NYC for a date? Didn’t that make you feel good inside? Hypocrite.
Health care? Obie is saying we need to spend a ton to fix a healthcare system that’s the most expensive in the world. Huh? If we’re already the most expensive, why spend more? Genius. And what makes you think a new governmental beauracracy will be more efficient than what we have now? Name a social program that runs efficiently. I assume you think it’s OK for me to pay more in taxes for a more ineffiecient system while I will personally end up with more expensive and dangerous health care. Great.
Oh schools. Of course. The government (fed, state and local) have done a bang up job on that, huh? Of course they have. The new generation are so thoughtful and have such great historic perspective. That’s how a community organizer (that’s so cool) can get elected President. Nothing wrong with a little reverse racism if it makes you fell so ummm.
Stem cell? The issue is federal funding. Forget that, what about partial birth abortion. Got any quotes from Ben Franklin on that?
Illegals? I’m sorry I don’t have your solution in front of me to read, but give me a break. I’m glad it will make you feel good to help the honest ones, but their illegal to begin with. Seal the borders first. Then you can start whatever feel good policy you want – as long as it’s not out of my pocket. Say, how’s California doing lately? Any connection with illegals on that? They’re sucking us dry. Duh.
That’s it for now! Trust me, we’re not close on many issues.
-Tom
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If we’re going to have a debate, at least let’s get our arguments straight.
1. When did I ever suggest that that the illegal and unconstitutional, not to mention depraved, detention of prisoners at Gitmo ever had anything to do with the invasion of privacy? I said that it did involve denying them any right to counsel or to a fair trial. Perhaps my reference to wiretaps and the Patriot Act had something to do with the right to privacy.
2. Most of these “combatants” were caught in a battlefield that we created when we invaded a sovereign nation that posed no real threat to us. I’m talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan. Even then, do you really blame the Afghanis and their allies for fighting an invading force? We certainly didn’t seem to mind it when they fought the Soviets.
3. While in my heart of hearts, I have some sympathy for your argument regarding GM, as I am a libertarian at heart, I understand why Obama is doing what he is doing. If GM craters, that may well turn a historic recession into a full blown depression. Remember, we’re not just talking about GM dying. Think about all of the industries and suppliers that are reliant upon GM. GM and the Unions both screwed up and it is unfair for the taxpayers to have to fix their mistakes. Nonetheless, Obama is stepping in and I’ll be interested to see what happens. I’m not confident that this is the right fix but it is the fix that the government is trying, whether we like it or not. Time will tell whether or not it was the right fix or, alternatively, even a bigger mistake.
4. Health care? I don’t necessarily agree that our healthcare system is the most expensive in the world. I suspect that if you take into account the taxes that Canada and the various European/socialist countries require, our system may not be entirely out of whack. Nonetheless, it comes down to a simple question. Do you believe that universal healthcare benefits the country as a whole? If so, then we need to devise a system that provides for it. If not, then we should stick with what works…or at least works for most of us.
5. Schools? Sorry, I didn’t follow your point. Do public schools suck? For the most part, yes. That’s why I’ve sent my kids to a private high school. I’m all in favor of privatizing schools and undercutting the teachers’ unions. Let’s start paying them for performance rather than just longevity. I suspect you and I are on the same page here.
6. Stem cell? How do we get from stem cell research to partial birth abortion? How does one justify the right to be left alone except when you happen to be pregnant in your third trimester? If you are pro-life, then don’t make arguments about the right to be left alone. If you are pro-choice except on the issue of late term abortions, please define the difference between a fetus at 5 mos., 29 days and one at 6 months. I’d appreciate a little consistency here.
7. Illegals? Seal the borders? Oh, come on. You can’t really believe that this is a reasonable solution. If you’re going to do that, let’s just become a total isolationist country, do what we please, when we please…it certainly seems to be working well for the North Korean people. Good thing they didn’t seal the borders during the Potato Famine or you and I might be toiling away on our family farms back on the Old Sod.
Tom, I love to argue. I love to argue with you. I enjoy it because it makes me think and consider other points of view. I learn more from arguing with intelligent people than by just reading books and magazines that merely confirm my political thoughts. My political beliefs have changed drastically over the years from arguing issues with friends. I used to be anti-gun, now I have a .22 in my desk drawer and have started shopping for a shotgun and a 9mm handgun.
I used to be positively Reagan-esque in my support of de-regulation until I saw what greed has done. I’m still suspicious of government regulation but believe that at least some regulation and oversight is necessary.
I used to be religious and am now a very proud atheist who believes that while religion can be comforting to some people and can encourage them to do good, it is mostly a power grab and a way to manipulate and take advantage of the ignorant masses.
I used to distrust government and believe that most government workers are lazy and incompetent and unable to make it in the private sector. Now….well, I still think that way but perhaps that because no one has been able to convince me otherwise. Do you want to take a stab at convincing me?
All in all, I argue because it’s fun for me. When you say that I’ve pissed you off, I hope that you still found some joy in the arguing process even if it inflamed your sensibilities. You and I will always disagree about various things, yet I still value our friendship. If you don’t enjoy the argument, please let me know and we’ll avoid arguing the issues. I won’t risk one of my oldest and most treasured friendships because of a self-indulgent love of argument. If, however, you enjoy the arguing, let’s continue. I may yet be able to convince you of the error of your ways.
Take a breath, relax and realize that you are I are still 2 of the luckiest guys in the world. We have wives that apparently still love us despite our various faults and physical impairments, we have great kids (healthy and happy), we have careers and we have friends. While it certainly could be better, life is still pretty damn good.
-KWL
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Here’s where I saw you mixing torture with invasion of privacy. Sorry if I misread your meaning:
I am both proud and hopeful about Obama. He’s still got a long way to go but I am proud of the fact that he “gets it, “ which W. never did. America is more than just a country, it is an ideal. Torture should never be sanctioned by the government. Invasions of privacy, such as those under the Patriot Act, should never be sanctioned by the government. It was Benj. Franklin who stated: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
As far as I know, the ones “tortured” were caught in Pakistan. They were Al Queda, you remember, those guys that came to America and killed many from our hometown. Cry me a river for those guys. They should have all been shot. I can’t wait for the trials to begin. As far as the Patriot Act goes, has Obama made any significant change to that?
Problems in Iraq grew out of lack of international and US (domestic/Democrat ) support. International support was primarily pulled out at a critical time by Chirac. Say, wasn’t he being bribed by Saddam? Hmmm. Much of the Iraqi terrorism was caused by foreigners, not Iraqis. An added show of strength, THE SURGE, turned the tide. Bad guys understand resolve. Didn’t Harry Reid announce the surge wasn’t working? Even before it began? What a guy! Stay tuned, we are losing our resolve. We have been and will be tested (N.Korea/Iran). Fortunately our resolve has not significantly changed yet on the Afghan and Iraq fronts.
You can’t have all sets of guidelines/rules/laws on illegals until you can track them. Start with border control. Are you worried about costs? This is the new America where we can print as much as we can imagine. Refresh my memory: were our ancestors illegal? I don’t think so. They all passed through immigration. Wow, what a concept. I didn’t say no foreigners. I’m against illegals.
I’ll take a break for now. You summed things up well.
-Tom
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I let you get the last word, without any rebuttal. Have a good weekend.
-KWL
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Shit, I was going to say the same thing, expecting your response to be longer. You win.
-Tom
Tom:
Finally, there’s one thing we can agree upon. Obama does suck. Like you, I long for the good old days when we didn’t have to worry about these record deficits, we just kept all those pesky expenses for Iraq and Afghanistan off the books. Remember how we didn’t care what the rest of the world thought of us. Who needs the rest of the world anyway? America should be able to stand alone. It’s not like we are dependent upon the economies of the rest of the world. Screw them, let them figure their own way out of this recession.
I miss the days when our president could announce that Iraq had WMDs and, then, “Mission Accomplished” and we believed him. It’s certainly not our fault that those damn Iraqis didn’t appreciate what we did for them.
It’s so embarrassing now to have that wimpy Obama going around the world trying to make nice with moderate Islamic governments in an effort to make us safer. Every true American knows that the only way to keep America safe is to stick suspected terrorists at Gitmo indefinitely, not allow them any right to counsel or to a fair trial, and torture the hell out of them. Oops, did I say torture? I meant to say “subject them to enhanced interrogation techniques.” What happened to the America that felt comfortable with its government wiretapping its phone calls without any judicial oversight. Hey, I don’t have anything to hide so why not? That’s what the real America is all about.
And whatever happened to the America that required companies to be responsible for their own screw ups? Oh wait, that’s right, the bailouts started under W. OK, forget about that but still, Obama sucks. A real president wouldn’t have us in this recession to start with. What? You say that the recession started while W. was in office? OK, but that’s because of those Democrats in Congress.
I don’t know about you but as soon as Dick Cheney announces his candidacy for 2012, I’m signing on. Under a Cheney administration, we wouldn’t have to worry about some Latina liberal being appointed to the Supreme Court. My God, this new proposed Justice seems to think that the Constitution is an evolving document! We need more white males who understand that the Constitution drafted in the 18th Century gives us all of the rights that we need and should be strictly construed consistent with the drafters’ original intent. Of course, you should ignore the stuff in the Constitution about slavery but, other than that, what those farmers and merchants believed back in the 1780s is certainly good enough for me.
Speaking of strict construction, isn’t it time that we finally admitted that we are a Christian Nation and start ensuring that our laws are consistent with both the Constitution and the Bible? Freedom of Religion doesn’t mean freedom from Religion. The Constitution merely prohibits the Government from promoting any one religion like they did in England. Let’s promote all religions (as long as they are Christian!). Kids have to be taught about the Bible in public schools. It really is a shame to see our Society deteriorate just because of those communists at the ACLU don’t want our kids to know about God.
Let’s hope that people finally realize that the “Obama Experiment” is a bad idea and that we need to get back to good old fashion American politics. The sooner the better! Are we on the same page?
-KWL
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Heh? If I read you correctly, you're still enamoured with Obama. If not, disregard the following.
I guess you are proud/hopeful of the direction Obie has steered us. Enough with the Bush bashing. Obie owns things now. What he's doing in the big scheme of his has nothing to do with correcting or fixing past decisions. Agreed? If so, I say Obama sucks. If not, he still sucks. If you like the direction he's going, tell me that some day in the next 3 years I'm going to come to a realization that he is a great President. Tell me that the life of my family and friends and community will be better because of Obie's grand scheme. I'll be waiting. I
promise I'll let you know when my opinion of our President changes.
-Tom
_____________________
I am both proud and hopeful about Obama. He’s still got a long way to go but I am proud of the fact that he “gets it, “ which W. never did. America is more than just a country, it is an ideal. Torture should never be sanctioned by the government. Invasions of privacy, such as those under the Patriot Act, should never be sanctioned by the government. It was Benj. Franklin who stated: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
So what is Obama doing wrong? GM? What choice does he have. If the automobile industry goes under in America, the loss of employment will be devastating. I think that GM management and the unions have really screwed things up. I’m hopeful that the government will at least be able to steer GM in the right direction and then get the hell out of the way.
Closing Gitmo? Our use of Gitmo was a mistake from Day 1. In any event, if we want to stick people in prison, we have plenty of space in Nebraska.
Allowing stem cell research? I will agree that this is questionable as embryonic stem cell research has discovered some real problems but we, as a nation, need to at least encourage scientific experimentation that could help millions.
Appointing the Latino Liberal? Surely you can’t be questioning this appointment. She is extremely well qualified and has been previously nominated to Federal Bench positions by both H.W. and Clinton.
Iraq? Most Iraqis want us out. He set a timetable. He’s focusing on Afghanistan where W. should have focused years ago. He still needs to figure out how to resolve things in Afghanistan and Pakistan but give him some time. He’s trying and he understands that the longer it goes on, the more unpopular it becomes to have our kids dying over there.
Health care? Even the Republicans acknowledge that we need to do something about this. At least he’s trying.
So, what have I missed? What has Obama done that warrants saying he sucks. The guys been in office less than 6 months. I’m not ready to put his face up on Mt. Rushmore but I am impressed that he seems to understand the severity of our problems and that the fixes are exceedingly complex and will take time. As best I can see, he’s being honest with the American people in telling them what his perceptions and goals are.
Tom, I don’t think that you’ll ever agree that Obama is a great president, just like you’ll never convince me that the Bush/Cheney Administration was good for America, or that Clinton never had sex with that woman or that Nixon was honest. I won’t deify Obama but I am encouraged by him and, yes, he gives me hope. At this point, that’s enough for me.
-KWL
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I predict when you get disillusioned it will be far too late.
If you could stop making this a comparison to past Presidents, just realize how much he is banking on grabbing our and our childrens’ future earnings. Unprecedented.
For the record, I don’t think I’ve ever doubted that Clinton had sex with Monica. Clinton should have just admitted it instead of perjurying himself. Dope.
Sotomayor has said racist statements while a judge. Undisputed.
I’ve given up defending Bush. Pointless.
-Tom
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How can you perform any reasonable analysis of Obama without comparing him to his predecessors? That’s like saying BC’s football team last year was the best (or worst) it has ever had, as long as you don’t look at any of the prior teams.
While Obama has certainly increased the amount of the federal deficit, you have to compare it to his predecessor’s numbers. Bush, as well as every other president for the past 40+ years has always run a deficit. The huge deficits started with Reagan with just a short “blip” during Clinton’s final term. That “blip” has to be considered at least partly the result of the economic boom that was going on at the time and which subsequently burst.
Obama’s numbers are certainly the highest yet but we are also in the midst of a recession that is unprecedented. I was speaking with an economist the other day that said in some ways, the current recession is actually worse than the Great Depression.
Sotomayor made one – just one, minor racial statement. If that’s the best that the Republican’s can come up with, they should just concede and approve her nomination.
As far as defending Bush, it’s not pointless, it’s impossible.
-KWL
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Put it this way, we could have some kind of discussion, but I can't deal with all of the pigeon droppings you let fly.
Some of your arguments use leftist sterotypes of conservatives that don't fit me and are insulting.
We see two Americas. I remember what our counrty was like, for good and bad. The values of this country are shot. Depending on the federal government for all our needs is and will be our downfall. I just imagined if I had to wait any longer to get my ear checked out. Instead of 1 day, if it took two weeks, I would have no hope of recovery. The window for cure would be over. Our medical system ain't great, but I dread the alternative. The question then becomes who benefits with some kind of universal health care? The non-workers, mostly. Let's not forget (oh no, I'm going to say it) the illegals. Oh yeah, Barry's going to make everything all right on that front too.
Oh, and I'm so glad the world loves us now. They do? I don't think so. Even if they did, who gives a crap? The only time we have been most appreciated is when we saved numerous peoples in war. Over time the saved have forgotten the greatness and nobilty of America. No wonder why, so do many Americans. OK, you can stop gagging. But Barrack will not be making America greater (by any measure). Trust me, I hope I'm wrong.
Piss all you want on Bush, but remember Clinto had his chances to take out Osama, France, Germany and Turkey screwed us on the eve of invading Iraq, and our country wasn't attacked after 9/11. Germany, France and England have all shifted right since 9/11. A little too late, but you know if France didn't backstab us, the course of Iraq would have been totally different. I blame Chirac.
The Mission Accomplish jab has taken on a life on its own. What a joke. I watched the whole event live. I remember it. It's funny how they can't replay Bush's speech on the aircraft carrier that day. Look it up, if you can. I remember him saying the war was far from over. Hmmm, your buddy (I assume) Keith Olberman will never want to play that quote.
Let's both agree to hope. Trust me, I hope I'm wrong on Obie. But I don't hope his policies succeed. Running up insane defiicts to implement his agenda is obscene. Trust me, as a two degree economist, it will not be stimulative.
-Tom
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I sincerely apologize if you thought I was suggesting you are a stereotypical conservative. You may be a lot of things (mostly wrong!) but you are certainly not stereotypical of anything. If you remember a country radically different than what we have now, you have a much better memory than me. We have been a country of big government at least since FDR. Never, in our lifetimes, has government actually shrunk for any sustained period (I believe it may have shrunk during Clinton’s last year but that was it).
As to health care, its not like there are just 2 choices – what we have now and a socialized system. We will end up with a system that will provide basic benefits for everyone but allow those who can afford it to choose their own doctors and their own treatment.
Since you brought up the issue of illegals, I have to at least touch on that. I suspect that you and I disagree on this issue (what a surprise!). My thought is to open the borders to anyone and everyone who wants to experience America. As a condition of being allowed in, however, you would have to be fluent in English and no criminal background. I would provide then provide for a tiered system of citizenship that would gradually grant greater rights over a period of years. If, during any time prior to full citizenship, the person commits a serious crime, they’re done. Terminate their citizenship and deport them, seize their assets, brand their children, etc. OK, maybe not the last 2 but at least terminate the citizenship and deport them.
I’ve watched the Mission Accomplished video. I know what Bush said. I know that he had no strategy (or is it strategery?) for what to do in Iraq after toppling Saddam. He truly thought that the Iraqi people would rise up as one, praise him and America and get their shit together after decades of brutal dictatorship. That’s like saying a dysfunctional family can cure all its problems if people would just tell each other that they love him. Perhaps even a better analogy would be a dysfunctional family with an abusive parent. What happens when the parent dies? Generally the family stays dysfunctional.
It was naïve on the part of Bush and his lackeys not to have developed an exit strategy and is inexcusable.
As to trusting you because of your dual economics degrees, no offense but no thanks. If there’s one thing I think you will agree on, it’s that the more technical things get, the more opinions there are. Many very talented and educated economists supports Obama’s spending. Just as many, if not more, doubt it. Being just a good old country lawyer, I’ll just sit that argument out and see what it looks like when the dust settles. To the extent that Obama’s plans get us out of this recession, I’m all for it. The true measure of Obama will be when the economy recovers. Will he be able to lead the hogs (Congress) away from the public trough? If so, he will be a truly great man. If not, I will agree with you that we are in deep shit.
I honestly don’t think that you and I disagree too much. You’re pessimistic about Obama’s plans and I am optimistic. We are both cynical, in the long run, about whether or not government will ever truly figure out a way to decrease its size and get its financial house in order.
Are we done? Don’t we both have better things to do? Or, as I suspect, are you and I going to continue this because we both want the last word? Wouldn’t this be much better if we were doing this on the beach with a cooler of beer between us? In any event, tag - you’re it.
KWL
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I know this reply is out of sequence, but you’ve really pissed me off and I need to make a few more points.
I’m sorry I’m not so well prepared (or inclined) to argue every one of your thoughtful issues, but here’s my response to a few. Please believe I could go on for about a year responding to you, but why?
First, you suggest that interrogating the enemy at Gitmo is an “invasion of privacy” . What planet are you on? Invasion of privacy? They were caught on the battle field invading our right to LIVE!
For a liberterarian, what makes you think Obama isn’t invading our privacy more and more? He’s attacking every institution we know. Where’s my right to be left alone? He wants me to pay more for energy, health care, and taxes to pay for those that won’t get off their butts except for the next handout.
Getting involved with GM? Saving workers? Give me a break. It’s called competition. GM caved to the unions and lost its competiveness. Now, Obie wants manufacturers to build trash can compacts that nobody with a brain wants. That’s taking away liberties. GM should have gone bankrupt. Let the chips fall where they may. Oh we can’t have that. We have to go on a crusade against the executives who fly in to DC instead of driving. What a crock. Say, how was Obie’s trip to NYC for a date? Didn’t that make you feel good inside? Hypocrite.
Health care? Obie is saying we need to spend a ton to fix a healthcare system that’s the most expensive in the world. Huh? If we’re already the most expensive, why spend more? Genius. And what makes you think a new governmental beauracracy will be more efficient than what we have now? Name a social program that runs efficiently. I assume you think it’s OK for me to pay more in taxes for a more ineffiecient system while I will personally end up with more expensive and dangerous health care. Great.
Oh schools. Of course. The government (fed, state and local) have done a bang up job on that, huh? Of course they have. The new generation are so thoughtful and have such great historic perspective. That’s how a community organizer (that’s so cool) can get elected President. Nothing wrong with a little reverse racism if it makes you fell so ummm.
Stem cell? The issue is federal funding. Forget that, what about partial birth abortion. Got any quotes from Ben Franklin on that?
Illegals? I’m sorry I don’t have your solution in front of me to read, but give me a break. I’m glad it will make you feel good to help the honest ones, but their illegal to begin with. Seal the borders first. Then you can start whatever feel good policy you want – as long as it’s not out of my pocket. Say, how’s California doing lately? Any connection with illegals on that? They’re sucking us dry. Duh.
That’s it for now! Trust me, we’re not close on many issues.
-Tom
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If we’re going to have a debate, at least let’s get our arguments straight.
1. When did I ever suggest that that the illegal and unconstitutional, not to mention depraved, detention of prisoners at Gitmo ever had anything to do with the invasion of privacy? I said that it did involve denying them any right to counsel or to a fair trial. Perhaps my reference to wiretaps and the Patriot Act had something to do with the right to privacy.
2. Most of these “combatants” were caught in a battlefield that we created when we invaded a sovereign nation that posed no real threat to us. I’m talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan. Even then, do you really blame the Afghanis and their allies for fighting an invading force? We certainly didn’t seem to mind it when they fought the Soviets.
3. While in my heart of hearts, I have some sympathy for your argument regarding GM, as I am a libertarian at heart, I understand why Obama is doing what he is doing. If GM craters, that may well turn a historic recession into a full blown depression. Remember, we’re not just talking about GM dying. Think about all of the industries and suppliers that are reliant upon GM. GM and the Unions both screwed up and it is unfair for the taxpayers to have to fix their mistakes. Nonetheless, Obama is stepping in and I’ll be interested to see what happens. I’m not confident that this is the right fix but it is the fix that the government is trying, whether we like it or not. Time will tell whether or not it was the right fix or, alternatively, even a bigger mistake.
4. Health care? I don’t necessarily agree that our healthcare system is the most expensive in the world. I suspect that if you take into account the taxes that Canada and the various European/socialist countries require, our system may not be entirely out of whack. Nonetheless, it comes down to a simple question. Do you believe that universal healthcare benefits the country as a whole? If so, then we need to devise a system that provides for it. If not, then we should stick with what works…or at least works for most of us.
5. Schools? Sorry, I didn’t follow your point. Do public schools suck? For the most part, yes. That’s why I’ve sent my kids to a private high school. I’m all in favor of privatizing schools and undercutting the teachers’ unions. Let’s start paying them for performance rather than just longevity. I suspect you and I are on the same page here.
6. Stem cell? How do we get from stem cell research to partial birth abortion? How does one justify the right to be left alone except when you happen to be pregnant in your third trimester? If you are pro-life, then don’t make arguments about the right to be left alone. If you are pro-choice except on the issue of late term abortions, please define the difference between a fetus at 5 mos., 29 days and one at 6 months. I’d appreciate a little consistency here.
7. Illegals? Seal the borders? Oh, come on. You can’t really believe that this is a reasonable solution. If you’re going to do that, let’s just become a total isolationist country, do what we please, when we please…it certainly seems to be working well for the North Korean people. Good thing they didn’t seal the borders during the Potato Famine or you and I might be toiling away on our family farms back on the Old Sod.
Tom, I love to argue. I love to argue with you. I enjoy it because it makes me think and consider other points of view. I learn more from arguing with intelligent people than by just reading books and magazines that merely confirm my political thoughts. My political beliefs have changed drastically over the years from arguing issues with friends. I used to be anti-gun, now I have a .22 in my desk drawer and have started shopping for a shotgun and a 9mm handgun.
I used to be positively Reagan-esque in my support of de-regulation until I saw what greed has done. I’m still suspicious of government regulation but believe that at least some regulation and oversight is necessary.
I used to be religious and am now a very proud atheist who believes that while religion can be comforting to some people and can encourage them to do good, it is mostly a power grab and a way to manipulate and take advantage of the ignorant masses.
I used to distrust government and believe that most government workers are lazy and incompetent and unable to make it in the private sector. Now….well, I still think that way but perhaps that because no one has been able to convince me otherwise. Do you want to take a stab at convincing me?
All in all, I argue because it’s fun for me. When you say that I’ve pissed you off, I hope that you still found some joy in the arguing process even if it inflamed your sensibilities. You and I will always disagree about various things, yet I still value our friendship. If you don’t enjoy the argument, please let me know and we’ll avoid arguing the issues. I won’t risk one of my oldest and most treasured friendships because of a self-indulgent love of argument. If, however, you enjoy the arguing, let’s continue. I may yet be able to convince you of the error of your ways.
Take a breath, relax and realize that you are I are still 2 of the luckiest guys in the world. We have wives that apparently still love us despite our various faults and physical impairments, we have great kids (healthy and happy), we have careers and we have friends. While it certainly could be better, life is still pretty damn good.
-KWL
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Here’s where I saw you mixing torture with invasion of privacy. Sorry if I misread your meaning:
I am both proud and hopeful about Obama. He’s still got a long way to go but I am proud of the fact that he “gets it, “ which W. never did. America is more than just a country, it is an ideal. Torture should never be sanctioned by the government. Invasions of privacy, such as those under the Patriot Act, should never be sanctioned by the government. It was Benj. Franklin who stated: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
As far as I know, the ones “tortured” were caught in Pakistan. They were Al Queda, you remember, those guys that came to America and killed many from our hometown. Cry me a river for those guys. They should have all been shot. I can’t wait for the trials to begin. As far as the Patriot Act goes, has Obama made any significant change to that?
Problems in Iraq grew out of lack of international and US (domestic/Democrat ) support. International support was primarily pulled out at a critical time by Chirac. Say, wasn’t he being bribed by Saddam? Hmmm. Much of the Iraqi terrorism was caused by foreigners, not Iraqis. An added show of strength, THE SURGE, turned the tide. Bad guys understand resolve. Didn’t Harry Reid announce the surge wasn’t working? Even before it began? What a guy! Stay tuned, we are losing our resolve. We have been and will be tested (N.Korea/Iran). Fortunately our resolve has not significantly changed yet on the Afghan and Iraq fronts.
You can’t have all sets of guidelines/rules/laws on illegals until you can track them. Start with border control. Are you worried about costs? This is the new America where we can print as much as we can imagine. Refresh my memory: were our ancestors illegal? I don’t think so. They all passed through immigration. Wow, what a concept. I didn’t say no foreigners. I’m against illegals.
I’ll take a break for now. You summed things up well.
-Tom
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I let you get the last word, without any rebuttal. Have a good weekend.
-KWL
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Shit, I was going to say the same thing, expecting your response to be longer. You win.
-Tom